Car Help! Now!

[Coyote Chris]

A few days ago , my wife's 2015 Forester with 190,000 mi (trade in value $5000) blew a solid red high coolant temp light. A blinking one would have been overheating. The car has no coolant temp gage.
She drove the 3 miles home and put it into the garage. The overflow bottle was full. I let the car cool and the engine didnt suck the coolant back into the radiator. I then carefully pulled the radiator cap off and there was this giant sucking sound. I put the overflow fluid back in the radiator and put on a new OEM cap. I then plugged in my OBDii reader and went for a drive. The car warms to 194 plus or minus 2 and stays there. I can manually turn on both cooling fans by turning on the A/C. BUT I had to exercise the fan relays to get them to do that. No matter...the car can go down the road at 194 or idle at 194...no fans. The fluid now cycles into and out of the overflow bottle.

Just before taking the car to the dealer for a flush, the check engine light came on and the OBDii reader said "Bank one too lean" . Which can be caused by a number of things...I cleared the code and tried to move all the plumbing but the code didnt come back.

So We take it to the dealer. My wife gives him the ok to do the flush and replace the clock spring so the horn works ($700) but the dealer now wants $600 for a new fuel air sensor and says the reason it went bad is weeping oil from the cam carrier seals.

OK! Here is what the dealer wants to do.
1. Replace Clock Spring so horn works ($750)
2. Pull engine. $2900. Cam carrier reseal. O rings, valve cover gasket, exhaust gasket, ( they are saying this weeping oil wrecked the P/A A/F sensor, which is $600-700 dollars. I assume this is the Air/Fuel sensor.
3. Right now, all the diagnostics are $900.
My wife told them to do the clock spring. The check engine light is off.
So the question is, do we do the A/F sensor and have the engine pulled to seal the cam carriers? On a $5000 vehicle ? Reguardless, she has to get new tires and a rear brake job. I dont think she needs the engine pulled on this vehicle. If the car fails completely, she has my trusty very nice 2004 Honda CRV with 160,000 miles on it to drive till she can get her hands on a new 2026 Outback, and if the CRV dies, she has my 2018 Subaru Forester with the 8 year/80,000 mile warrenty. This 2015 car is history once she finds a new car and I think the new Outback suits her to a T.
What would you do? The car ran fine with the check engine light on....
It will be probably 6 months before the new Outbacks arrive....then this piece of excrement is history.

 

[Yoda]

You got your money’s worth, and then some. Ask dealer for a trade in quote AS IS with no repairs.
Or, try to sell it to Carvana like I did my truck last year. They gave me above wholesale for it.

 

[mikesim]

I wouldnt put any more money into it. Drive it as is and wait for the new Outback. They should be getting to the showrooms pretty soon. I doubt that Carvana will buy it with that many miles. Let her use the Honda if possible. Once her Forester shoots craps, it is essentially worth zero. If it is still running you can get more when you trade for the Outback.

Mike

 

[Yoda]

Another thought. Tunnel 2 Towers just advertised they want ANY car donated.
If you are in a “higher” tax bracket, your CPA can turn that donation into a tax deduction. Make lemonade out of lemons.

 

[Sunny]

Another thought. Tunnel 2 Towers just advertised they want ANY car donated.
If you are in a “higher” tax bracket, your CPA can turn that donation into a tax deduction. Make lemonade out of lemons.

I think Kars for kids gives you a reasonable value certificate for the tax deduction + they also give you a gift holiday voucher ...

 

[Coyote Chris]

Another thought. Tunnel 2 Towers just advertised they want ANY car donated.
If you are in a “higher” tax bracket, your CPA can turn that donation into a tax deduction. Make lemonade out of lemons.

You know what is funny? We have donated her old junk cars. You get like $100 tax deduction but even that is up in the air with the new standard deduciton. Mostly we give them to sons of friends who know people and they fix them up. Her 2004 Outback is 150 yards away with way over 250,000 on it. It actually had some room in the back...not like the current ones. But the new 2026 Outback is way cool.

You got your money’s worth, and then some. Ask dealer for a trade in quote AS IS with no repairs.
Or, try to sell it to Carvana like I did my truck last year. They gave me above wholesale for it.

Actually, I would love it if she traded it in on a certified used car till the Outbacks come out in late fall. Its hard to explain to outsiders what Spokane has become. Lots of people moved here to get away from California and they brought their hyped up the heck with you driving and attitudes with them. I see agressive driving and even road rage all the time.

 

[Coyote Chris]

I think Kars for kids gives you a reasonable value certificate for the tax deduction + they also give you a gift holiday voucher ...

I think she gave one car to Union Gospel Mission and got like a $200 deduction. If my 2004 Honda CRV has a major issue...one call....thats all.....but its a wonderful car with lots of room and great for hauling gas or junk to the recycling center...or leaving at an airport.

 

[suvcw04]

I wouldn't put another dime into that car. In fact, I wouldn't even fill the gas tank clear up. Just $10 at a time. You don't want it to have a full tank, and then BOOM.

 

[Coyote Chris]

I wouldn't put another dime into that car. In fact, I wouldn't even fill the gas tank clear up. Just $10 at a time. You don't want it to have a full tank, and then BOOM.

My thinking too...,but women tend to not want to give up on things or men...be it a ball point pen that doesnt write well or what. She needs to learn the hard way. The main question now is... What happens if they are not lying and the $600 fuel/air sensor is bad and is leaning out the number one bank? We need to push this jalopy for six months, or it and my wonderful 2004 CRV, till she can pay cash for the new 2026 Outbacks...I wonder if seagrass would know?

 

[mikesim]

My thinking too...,but women tend to not want to give up on things or men...be it a ball point pen that doesnt write well or what. She needs to learn the hard way. The main question now is... What happens if they are not lying and the $600 fuel/air sensor is bad and is leaning out the number one bank? We need to push this jalopy for six months, or it and my wonderful 2004 CRV, till she can pay cash for the new 2026 Outbacks...I wonder if seagrass would know?

Something doesn't sound quite right. The fuel/air sensor is a sophisticated (read expensive) O2 sensor but I think there is just one per vehicle thus it cannot specify a lean condition on bank one as it reads the exhaust gases on both banks. Your vehicle also has O2 sensors that are unique to each bank. If one of those sensors is failing then they can trigger a lean condition on either bank. If the MIL is currently off, I would just drive it and if it returns take it to an O'Reilly store and have them read the fault codes and give you a printoutof the codes. They can also give you a printout showing what repairs may likely be needed to correct the condition. Note the word "likely" vs "certain". Making repairs simply on the presence of a fault code can often be expensive and may not correct the problem. But you will have more info then you have now. Regarding the oil leak, since you're planning on trading the vehicle soon, I would not replace the leaking seal just yet. I would get an oil leak additive and dump it in the engine. I normally do not recommend "mechanic in a can" since it is not a permanent repair but the additive has seal conditioners that can cause the seal to swell up a bit and lessen or stop the leak. In your case, this is all you really need to get yourself out of the woods until you can trade for a new Subie.

Hope this helps!

Mike

 

[NewTo700V]

Well, first thing .. why in the world are you asking this on a motorcycle forum? There's a ton of Subaru support forums on the webs. Hit up google and you'll probably find a discussion thread from another Subaru owner who's had the exact same stuff happen.

 

[Coyote Chris]

Something doesn't sound quite right. The fuel/air sensor is a sophisticated (read expensive) O2 sensor but I think there is just one per vehicle thus it cannot specify a lean condition on bank one as it reads the exhaust gases on both banks. Your vehicle also has O2 sensors that are unique to each bank. If one of those sensors is failing then they can trigger a lean condition on either bank. If the MIL is currently off, I would just drive it and if it returns take it to an O'Reilly store and have them read the fault codes and give you a printoutof the codes. They can also give you a printout showing what repairs may likely be needed to correct the condition. Note the word "likely" vs "certain". Making repairs simply on the presence of a fault code can often be expensive and may not correct the problem. But you will have more info then you have now. Regarding the oil leak, since you're planning on trading the vehicle soon, I would not replace the leaking seal just yet. I would get an oil leak additive and dump it in the engine. I normally do not recommend "mechanic in a can" since it is not a permanent repair but the additive has seal conditioners that can cause the seal to swell up a bit and lessen or stop the leak. In your case, this is all you really need to get yourself out of the woods until you can trade for a new Subie.

Hope this helps!

Mike

Thanks! We picked up the car with the check engine light still off. They said they wanted to replace the sensor and seal the cam carriers for $3700 or so. The F/A sensor is really the front O2 sensor and you can see it in this video. And why this is a $3600 or so job. They said oil is weeping down on the connector and killing the sensor. They said if the code returned, the car was still drivable but if the code flashed, the car would go into limp home mode, just like my 2004 Honda CRV did. Replacing the rear sensor on that was a piece of cake and it was cheep. This sensor is $700. You have been a big help. After seeing this video, it is clear that those extended warrenties are worth their weight in gold.

 

[Coyote Chris]

Well, first thing .. why in the world are you asking this on a motorcycle forum? There's a ton of Subaru support forums on the webs. Hit up google and you'll probably find a discussion thread from another Subaru owner who's had the exact same stuff happen.

Yes, I belong to two Subaru forums. But I respect Mike and Seagrass's opinions. When someone tells me at the shop that the cam carriers are weeping oil I can not see onto my front O2 sensor connector and killing it, I go to the web and find this forum video. It shows me what a witch it is to just get TO the connector on this vehicle. If this car was 100 percent working with usable tires, its worth $5000. We just put $1500 into it to flush the radiator and replace the clockspring ($700) which connects the horn button to the horn. And to diagnose the 171 code issue in their opinion. And it needs brake work and new tires. If I cant get to the front O2 sensor from under the car to clean the connector, I am not gonna buy a $700 O2 sensor and put that on. It is good to have 4 cars.....we wait till the 2026 Outback comes out.

 

[mikesim]

If you can get to the sensor to replace it, you can get a sensor from your parts store. Subaru uses either an NTK or Denso sensor both of which are available from O'Reilly . How big of a leak is is it? Can you see oil on the ground? Do you have to add oil periodically between changes? I would just dump a can of oil stop leak in it and wait for the Outback

Mike

 

[Coyote Chris]

If you can get to the sensor to replace it, you can get a sensor from your parts store. Subaru uses either an NTK or Denso sensor both of which are available from O'Reilly . How big of a leak is is it? Can you see oil on the ground? Do you have to add oil periodically between changes? I would just dump a can of oil stop leak in it and wait for the Outback

Mike

I can actually see the sensor in the top of the forward Cat. converter by opening the hood, but I cant get my hand down to it. You have to take off a plastic shield (big) to access it. Barb wants to used the car this weekend so at some point I want to take a pic of it (there appears to be some oil on the pigtail) and see if I can get to the connector. I think this is the critter

Oxygen Sensor. Sensor AIR/FUEL Ratio.​

Part Number: 22641AA670

I will try and take a pic of it....its not fun to get your hands on. I will have to confirm the part number and the after market ones. It looks like there is a bit of oil on it or at least like I said the pig tail but I want to get to the actual connector. Subaru says on the web $330 but 700 installed. There is absolutely no oil on the ground. If the sensor is just a bad sensor, then its not the little bit of oil on it. If the oil is getting on the connector, I can buy a connector safe cleaner and perhaps shield the connector. If I can get an aftermarket sensor or $150, it might be worth a shot. They are not fun to replace when they are out in the open like on my CRV, even with a special socket set.

 

[seagrass]

Get a Denso sensor (not an NTK) as anything but the Denso sensor responds too slowly for the Subaru ECU and will cause more DTC’s (Diagnostic Trouble Codes)

The oil weeping from the cam carrier seals can sometimes (not always) seep into the wiring insulation and down into the sensor and cause this failure. This is NOT a common failure but it can and does happen.

If it was my vehicle I would Install a new Denso sensor (check www.rockauto.com for a good price), degrease the engine to remove all the current oil etc and then monitor for further problems.

Many Subaru owners on the SubaruOutback.com forum choose to not reseal the cam carriers due to the prices quoted (up to $4,500 at some dealers). The reseal process requires the engine to be removed BUT a competent technician does the job in four to six hours and this does not justify the quoted price. Many independent workshops do the work for around $2,500.

The Forester is typically a sort after vehicle so doing this work will hopefully allow you to be able to sell it or trade it in for a reasonable price.

Seagrass

 

[suvcw04]

Well, first thing .. why in the world are you asking this on a motorcycle forum? There's a ton of Subaru support forums on the webs. Hit up google and you'll probably find a discussion thread from another Subaru owner who's had the exact same stuff happen.

Because, even though most of us have never met, we consider ourselves to be friends. Friends help friends. Everyone on this forum has knowledge and skills that can help someone else. We share a love of bikes and we share our knowledge.

 

[Coyote Chris]

Get a Denso sensor (not an NTK) as anything but the Denso sensor responds too slowly for the Subaru ECU and will cause more DTC’s (Diagnostic Trouble Codes)

The oil weeping from the cam carrier seals can sometimes (not always) seep into the wiring insulation and down into the sensor and cause this failure. This is NOT a common failure but it can and does happen.

If it was my vehicle I would Install a new Denso sensor (check www.rockauto.com for a good price), degrease the engine to remove all the current oil etc and then monitor for further problems.

Many Subaru owners on the SubaruOutback.com forum choose to not reseal the cam carriers due to the prices quoted (up to $4,500 at some dealers). The reseal process requires the engine to be removed BUT a competent technician does the job in four to six hours and this does not justify the quoted price. Many independent workshops do the work for around $2,500.

The Forester is typically a sort after vehicle so doing this work will hopefully allow you to be able to sell it or trade it in for a reasonable price.

Seagrass

Thanks! I am copy and pasting your excellent info for my wife. I still dont understand with one exhaust system the computer knows that #1 bank is lean but no matter....if push comes to shove, I can take off the big plastic pan and get to the sensor. I will post a pic of the sensor as I can see it from the top of the engine...after watching the video of the guy sealing the cam carriers, I can see why he took days as the sealant had to cure for one operation before doing the next.
As my wife ages, she still drives 20,000 miles a year and plays the radio constantly and isnt the best driver. She NEEDS the current Subaru state of the art collision avoidence and blind spot detection.....and not to get stranded 150 miles away due to a failed CVT valve body. I need her to realize with all her money, she needs to value herself and her 3 ea $100,000 dogs who are like children and not try to be like her father, who would cut open tooth paste tubes and scrape out the insides with a brush. She is not stupid....and he wasnt either...he was an engineer on the original space program and had all 7 original astronaughts in his station wagon at the same time.... but boy could he pinch a penny.
BTW, I would only add that its always nice to get a deal but trade in value or for that matter the cost of a new 2026 Outback are very low considerations when you have her money. She drives vehicles 10 years and more.
My Honda 2004 CRV stick is our back up vehicle. I dont even rememeber what it cost me new....and if something major went out, I would just dontate it. My backup for my 2025 Crosstreck is a 2018 Forester with 30k on it still under extended warrenty. Its new price is now laughable and I got an 8 year / 80,000 mile factory extended warranty for $800. It was used to go to Montana once a year and to Oshkosh wisconsin once a year and to a dog event once a year.

I am a 2004 Honda stick CRV. I am eternal. I get over 30 mpg and I can haul caskets for inconvenient bodies. No computer controls my tranmission or my AWD system. A 1970s mechanic can set my valves. I will outlive all those Detroit POSs. My vaccum was made in America by people who are long dead. LOL!

 

[Coyote Chris]

BTW, people on subaruforester.org say you can see the sensor from the top. This may well be it as the exhaust system runs down the pax side of the car. I used a flashlight and a telephoto lens to get this pic. The sensor and the wire appear to have oil on them. If I remove the pully shroud, I might be able to get my hand down there and feel and see more with a mirror. I am wondering what cleaner I can spray down there that would be sensor safe?

 

[seagrass]

You can spray with brake cleaner or electrical contact cleaner, both are sensor safe.

The Subaru can have a bank one and bank two sensor, one for each head and the exhausts then join into one pipe to go to the rear of the car. Not sure your Forester will have this setup though

My wife currently has a 2016 Honda CRV, her forth CRV. Started with a 2000, then a 2006, then a 2010. The 2016 is the best one and the last of the K24 engines. The 2017 had the 1.5 litre turbo which I will not buy due to all the problems with direct injection etc.

Very happy with the 2016 CRV and it currently has around 50,000 miles (80,000Km’s). Planning to jeep it until it has at least 180,000 miles (300,000 Km’s)

Seagrass